How Tamara Grominsky Predictably Grows Her Membership Each Month

Yeah.

Yes. Great. So product marketing is basically the voice of the product to the customer and then the voice of the customer back to the product. So basically we make sure, and I'm speaking mostly within the realm of like a software product marketer, which is probably where you would hear it. We make sure that the product team is building the right things for the right customers. And then when those things are ready to be launched, we launch them into the world, making sure that like the messaging is tight, the value proposition is clear. We're targeting the right customers on the right channels and really making sure that we're driving adoption post-launch as well. So it kind of overlaps product and marketing as per the name.

And you'll actually see that product marketers might sit in product or marketing teams depending on the org as well. So it's, it's a very nuanced role.

Oh, yes. So I think they should sit in product for a couple of reasons. First of all, I would say I lean towards more the upstream, like inbound side of product marketing, which is about working with the product team on those like initial insights of like, are we building the right things? for the right people solving the right problems. But I also think that, you know, if we get that part wrong, it doesn't really matter what we do on the marketing side. So I'd rather we sit with product. I think we should be more technical, we should be more data-oriented. And wherever you sit, there is going to be a bit of a gap or something that you're going to have to overcompensate for. But 9 out of 10 times, I think product is the answer.

So it's actually funny and it's very full circle, the fact that I'm a creator today. So I actually went to school and I did my undergrad in professional writing and my master's in publishing. And my dream was to work in a publishing house or at a magazine. So I love this like art of storytelling, the commercialization behind storytelling. How do you package a story, but also like uphold the intent integrity of that story at the same time. And after my master's, I worked in publishing, mostly in magazines, and realized very quickly that it was way too slow for me. I was like, I'm never gonna make any money in this industry. And the like pace of work is just not suited to my personality type.

And so randomly, one of the people that I went to school with had happened to end up in tech and was like, hey, we're hiring for a product marketer. It's basically what we were taught to do in our master's program, but it moves a lot more quickly and you're gonna make way more money. And I think you're going to have a great time. So that was my first exposure to it. I got on the job and realized very quickly that it touched all the things that I love and kind of the rest is history.

I mean, I might take us back just a little bit. So as I mentioned, I was a product marketer and more specifically a product marketing leader. So I actually progressed fairly quickly in my career, which happened to just be a bit of circumstance of right time, right place. Product marketing was becoming more well-known. I always had perspectives on it. So I was always posting on LinkedIn, getting groups of people together to like talk about this kind of new nebulous role, moved up quite quickly and realized as I kept moving up, there was not a lot of other people around me that I could have these conversations with. So I started to feel like more lonely, kind of doubting myself as well. And as you mentioned, even in your own experiences, it's different in every company.

So it's not even like every time I went to a different company, they understood who I was and what I did. So it was very confusing. And then at the same time, I was starting to feel very burnt out in my executive career as a product marketer. And so I actually made the strategic decision to like go to Kajabi to work. Um, so I was the VP of product marketing there, and I moved to Kajabi with the intent of trying to figure out how I myself could be a creator. And so I, I lay that groundwork just to say that it was an intentional decision. I wanted to study how the world's best creators were building like million, billion dollar businesses and see how I might be able to reverse engineer that. And so I didn't actually know that it needed to be a membership upfront, but I did know that I wanted to focus on product marketing leaders specifically because I felt like it was an underserved market.

There was not a lot of other people people speaking to these groups. And then equally, there was no one else really trying to capture that space. So I thought it could be one that I could own. And so I actually started with a newsletter before I started with any product.

Yeah, probably the thing that I took away the most was that for most creators, it has nothing to do with luck. It has a lot to do with hard work and systems. And whether a creator had a team behind them or whether they were a solopreneur, the best creators, and best meaning people who were fulfilled in their work but also were like monetarily successful, had systems in place that they followed that made them successful. And so they weren't just like hoping, oh, this launch goes well, or I'm hoping I grow more in this area. It was kind of reverse engineered in many ways. And so that became a through line for everything that I've built in my own business after.

Yeah. You know, I got to spend a lot of time with some amazing creators while I was at Kajabi. And one of the people that I got to spend some time with was Justin Welsh, who I'm sure you have followed as well, you know, was one of the first, like what all call B2B creators who really made it and made it as a solopreneur. He didn't have a large team behind him. So of course we also had like the Amy Porterfields of the world, but you know, she has a large team and is very public about that. But what Justin was doing was really cool and I would say definitely applying more of that entrepreneurial mindset, but he was still very like protective over the craft. Like he wasn't, he wanted to create something beautiful that felt real and authentic to him, but he also wanted to do it in like a systematic way that he could like measure, improve on. I think before that, people were like, well, I don't really know how people could become a million-dollar business as a creator, but you can actually study it and figure out like there are pathways, there are different calculations, there's different ratios and things you can do, funnels you can build.

So learned a lot about that.

Wow.

It's always a tricky balance.

So I wasn't on my own yet. So I, sorry to take you back to the story again. So I'm at Kajabi, I start my newsletter and in my mind I'm like, I'm gonna stay at Kajabi a few years. This is gonna be my last exec role and I'm going to build the thing that is going to let me leave that full-time role. Start with my newsletter. And like any good product marketer, I'm like, before I build a product, I'm going to understand my audience. So I survey, you know, my LinkedIn followers, my newsletter, other people. It comes back that connection is the thing that people are missing the most.

So I'm like, great, that's going to be a community slash a membership. And I get to work on that. And I would say I am building this whole time with this idea of like, I'm going to hit a point where I am going to be able to like be free and I'm going to be able to work on this full-time. So that was always the end goal, but I would say it happened way faster than I expected. I started my community in March and then I left Kajabi in September of that year.

'23. 2023.

Yeah, it was terrifying. It was terrifying, but I got to the point where, so I was the VP of product marketing at Kajabi, which was like a non-zero amount of work, as you can imagine. And then I'm growing this newsletter, my LinkedIn LinkedIn, my membership, and it was a very hands-on community. I'm very involved. And I was like, I'm not gonna be able to do either of these things well, and both are going to suffer. And now is the moment for me to bet on myself. I always knew I wanted to do my own thing, and I never had like the right product idea, if that makes sense. And I was like, this is my idea.

It's gaining traction. This is my moment. If no one else is gonna bet on me, I have to be the one to do it. So it was a bit of like a leap of faith, But I was a bit delulu, I guess.

It's changed drastically. It actually had a whole other name. It originally started as like PMM Office Hours, which was this idea of like a lot of people want to come and ask me for questions and help. What if I just brought everyone together? We would meet twice a month in office hours and a happy hours. One would be more like educational, one would be more fun. And I started with like a beta. So again, my whole thing is like bringing in product principles, product thinking. So I started with a beta where I gave myself 10 days to find 25 founding members.

And if I couldn't find them, then I wasn't going to move forward with the idea. So I found the founding members. I then— How'd you find them?

Yeah. Okay. So I had seen Caitlin Burgoyne. I probably have butchered her last name. She had done a like sales open cart using a Google Doc and I I was like, I love that. So I created a Google Doc where I was like, here's my vision, here's why I'm building this, who I'm building it for. Come with me on this journey. Like, it was very much a build it together.

And there was just like a link to the checkout page and I offered 50% off for lifetime. So I DM'd people. I like found people in my newsletter who I knew had been responding. I found people on LinkedIn. And probably the trickiest part was I knew I wanted them to be leaders, so they, it couldn't just be any PMM. It had to be people with like a very specific job title, but I already had quite a large personal network. And so I would say finding the first 25 people was not as hard as I expected it to do. I did it in 10 days easy.

I think it was just like, I, it depended. There was groups of people who I was like, I knew them, we had interacted before and I was like, hey, I really respect your perspective on the space. I'm building this thing, would love to have you be a part of it. Here's the link. I did do some cold outreach on LinkedIn though, and that was more just like, hey, I'm building this thing. I think here's a bit more of the story around why I think this is needed. Again, just sent them the link to the Google Doc. I will say that I had enough of a presence that people would recognize my name, so it's not like some rando is popping into your inbox.

For the most part, people would be like, oh, I've seen Tamara around, whether it's at a conference or here on LinkedIn. I'll at least like look at her message.

And then just started like being in constant contact with all of the members. So from day one, I always included one-on-one calls with me, which was probably a crazy idea, but has allowed me to basically do customer research every week of my business for the past 3 years. And so like just started to build things out. I had an idea of what I wanted to build. And as I started to get a sense of like the culture we wanted to build in the community, it became very clear that there would be like cornerstones of value. Again, it's like you can't take the product marketer out of me. I'm like, what are the value pillars? How are we going to deliver on those value pillars via features? And so just thought about it the same way I would build a product. And I had like an end goal in mind, less about the features that I would deliver, more about the value or the experience someone would have.

And then just kind of again, like built my way into it through iteration. the way that a product manager or product marketer would.

Sure. So there's a couple of value pillars. I would say 3 that I lean on the most. The first one is connection and kind of similar to your community connection really is the heart of what I offer and something you can't get anywhere else. And so this is about being able to connect with people at your level in a very curated environment. Everyone is vetted by me and it's an application only. And then there's a bunch of connection programs. Inside the community.

I have like peer groups that I call cabins. I connect people one-on-one. Then the second value pillar is more educational, but it's around leadership. So a lot of the product marketing training available is about like core skills, like being better at messaging or positioning or pricing, launching. Mine is all around leadership skills. So I developed my own signature framework, worked with Charlotte, who's also a member of the lab, and it has 5 core components to it. And so I teach those 5 components Whether I'm the one leading the sessions or I'll bring in experts. There's recordings and a swipe file and kind of the more resources that you might expect.

And then the third one, I do still position as mentorship and coaching. So a lot of my members who are on an older membership plan still get one-on-one access to me. New members, I position myself as just being like someone who's involved in the community, only a DM away. I am there. You can think of me as your mentor. And so those 3 value propositions, different ones resonate with different folks, but usually it's an overlap of the 3.

So it could happen at 2 different points. The first point is when someone joins. So whenever someone joins my membership, they immediately get access to a welcome call with me. And I would say over 90% of people take advantage of it, which is great. And out of that welcome call, it's just an opportunity for me to get to know them. It's a really fun conversation. For a lot of them, they've been following me and they're excited to just get to chat. And so it's like immediate value I can give.

But then I'm trying to reverse engineer 2 things. One, what are the resources that I should point them towards in the community to get them that value as fast as possible? And 2, who are the people that I should connect them with that I think they could be helpful to those people or the other way around? And then I prepare a little onboarding document that I send to them, including usually 3 to 5 people. And I'll offer to make those introductions themselves, but most people will just kind of reach out themselves through the messaging tools inside PMM Camp. So that's one. The second one is through cabins where I put those small peer groups together, 6 people. We run that 3 times a year. And then the third one would be periodically I'll just, you know, DM people or get in touch with people and say like, what's top of mind for you right now? How can I help you? Or who can I connect you with? And that's more ad hoc. Or if I see someone post, and I think you're great at this as well, if I see someone post inside the community asking for something and I know, oh, You know, Sarah is amazing at that.

I'll connect the two of them. I'll just do that kind of behind the scenes.

It's not fancy. It's a Google Doc. But, and I would say it's part templatized, but I write it myself. So it is still personal. I'll deliver it within 7 days of the welcome call. So I try to have like a pretty quick turnaround. The first thing is I want them to take my assessment, which is free for them, but it goes back to my leadership framework. And out of that assessment, I'll actually include the scores from the assessment in that doc.

So it's a great reference point for me, but then also a place for them to kind of keep that initial score top of mind. Then I'll put in, here's what I heard is like why you joined PMM Camp. Here's what I think you should focus on first. And then I will go into my community and find resources. I try to get 3 that I think they should start with. So it could be like a past Bonfire recording, which are my virtual events. It could be something from the swipe file. It could be an infographic I've built that's in the infographic.

graphic library. It really varies based on literally what that person wants to know. So that's the learning section. And then there's kind of a connection. So your learning plan, your connection plan. The connection plan is where I say, here's who you told me you wanted to meet. You wanna meet someone in this industry or someone who has this type of experience. Here's the people.

And then a description of why I think they should meet that person.

Yeah.

Wow.

Ooh.

Ooh, I'm like, this is my A-type achiever. I'm like, is that a high score?

Oh, wow.

That's amazing. And you've nailed it because Romley is a good friend of mine.

I love that. And I would like to get to a level like that too. I'm actually currently in the process of building out learning pathways for my signature framework. You know, there's 5 components, there's gonna be 5 learning pathways, and that's gonna make it much easier for me to just like route people to the right place. 'Cause all I need to do on the onboarding call is identify What is the first learning pathway for you?

And then route them right there. So I do think I can get to a more sophisticated version of what I'm building. But I will say one of the lessons I have learned is that sometimes you shouldn't scale everything. You know, the thing that I hear over and over again is like, I can just tell you care so much. This felt like completely personal to me. This was like a magical moment. And I am constantly kind of bordering that line of like, How do I keep the magic, but also how do I become more efficient? You know?

So this goes back to probably the second most important thing that I learned at Kajabi. The best creators also had a rhythm to their business, but we're often thinking, or when you talk to any creator, they're like, I'm exhausted by launching, or I have anxiety about my next launch. I have no idea how much revenue it's gonna drive for me? Is this going to be $20K or $100K, right? But I saw, because I talked to all these creators at Kajabi, that many of them had predictable businesses and they weren't constantly launching. And so when I built my business, I knew from the start that I wanted to use what is called an open and closed cart model. I'd spent some time with Amy Porterfield and her team, and they kind of did like a once a year open and closed cart. But there's many creators that do variations of this. I would say the most common is like quarterly. So when I started my business, I started with quarterly open and close carts, meaning you can join the community once per quarter and for a period of time.

Now, over time, I have moved away from quarterly for a variety of reasons. One, it felt like too long for someone to wait, especially for a connection-based community. It's like, if I'm in a struggle right now, I want to connect with someone. And then second of all, it was hard from a revenue perspective. It's like, I'm only really making revenue 4 times a year. And even with renewals, they're still happening at the same 4 times per year. I don't have a lot of other revenue streams. This is my primary one.

And it was hard to experiment on because the time to learning was so long, right?

And so, you'll know, but you know, the listeners may not. So I ended up moving to like an evergreen model cuz I was like, Jay makes it look so easy. He has people coming through the door all the time. I completely broke my business. This was the fall of last year. It was a very stressful time for me because I went from having fairly predictable open and closed cart numbers. to just no one was joining, even though I was doing all the things that seemed right. I was doing what you do, which is I would film a personalized video.

I would send it to them. I sent emails. It just was not working for me. So I quickly moved to a monthly open and close cart model. And actually Tom was the one who had recommended monthly for me. He was like, I have this other client that has used this before and maybe it'll work for you. Gave it a shot and I've been doing that since December now. So I have 8 months, almost 9 months of data, and it has allowed me to do what you mentioned at the beginning, which is build a very predictable, scalable model where every month I am experimenting on top of known baselines to slowly but surely increase performance.

And I think also create like a fairly predictable experience for my customer as well.

So I do my cabins 3 times a year and they're kind of irrelevant to the open and closed carts, except for the fact that the open and closed cart before the next round of cabins, I will be promoting it. So one of the benefits of this monthly model, and maybe I'll just walk through what happens. So anyone comes to my sales page, you can go to the sales page any day and it will always say join the waitlist. That join the waitlist will take you to an application where you immediately find out if you are accepted, not accepted, or are on hold, or I guess in review. If you are declined, you get sent to this bootcamp program I have. So at least I'm sending them somewhere. But if you get accepted, you then get tagged in Kit and dropped into a sequence, which is like your welcome sequence. I make them feel special.

Only X percent of people get approved. Here's what's going to happen next. Then on the 1st of every month, so it's the 1st to the 5th of every month, regardless of if that's a Saturday or a Tuesday, again, just for consistency, they will then be dropped into a nurture flow. There's 4 emails across 5 days. And the best part is that, you know, one of those emails is always the same, which is like, it's your time, it's your enrollment window, welcome. But then the other 3 emails, I completely rewrite every month based on what's coming up in the community the month ahead.

And so it's marketing emails.

And so I never have to market my community outside of that email flow, really. I could just have this safe space where I can really showcase like events that might be coming up. If we have cabin matching that's coming, or if there's anything else that's happening that's maybe special that I could promote.

So I have noticed that someone, probably 2 or 3 times, someone has gotten declined and then they will reapply knowing that they need to choose like a different answer. And I will say, I don't have insane numbers. Like I'm probably getting 50 applications, maybe a little bit more per month. And so I usually go in once a week and I'm just like looking at what's happening. So if something happens, I can see it. In most of those cases, I'll just go and verify. I'll look at their LinkedIn and think, uh, it's probably a nuanced situation, but it's fine with the scale of my business that I have today.

Totally. Plus, they're just getting on the approved waitlist, so you have time to remove them. It's not like they're even joining the community and paying for anything. So the risk is very low.

Okay.

Yes.

It's a tag. Okay.

It says like community-approved. I also see declined. So I can see anyone who has maybe been declined as well, because I can, there's warmer leads, I can maybe promote something else. Then this just builds up throughout the month. So as the month goes on, I'm seeing more and more approved applicants. I could probably automate this even as I say this out loud, but the day before my open cart, I apply a new tag, which is basically like this current open cart tag that then drops them into a visual automation, which has a variety of things. The first thing is it's It's going to pause for 1 day, then it's going to drop them into the email sequence, the open cart email sequence. So I don't need to like rebuild this every time.

I just go in and edit the emails. They're going to get the series of 4 emails. If at any point they purchase, they get out of that. If they do not purchase by the end of the 5 days, I wait, I think 5 days. I then remove the approved applicant tag from everyone. Then Then if you did not buy, you get another email that says you're off the waitlist. Seems like the time wasn't right. I'm removing you from the waitlist to make room for someone else.

If you want to stay on the waitlist and buy next month, click this button and I will re-add you. Otherwise, hopefully timing works out in the future. So long. I basically strip all the tags from them and apply one final tag, which lets me know that they've gone through an open cart period but have not bought. So now I also have a large repository of people who have gone through open cart and never bought as well. Which as we go towards the end of the year, I'm thinking about doing like maybe a special promo or something for that group.

Oh yes. So originally you never got dropped off the waitlist and my waitlist would just build and build, which was kind of fun because I'm like, ooh, there's like 200 approved applicants this month. And then you get the sales and you're like, uh-oh, that wasn't what I wanted. And it was very hard. So going back to predictability, it was actually hard to understand the denominator and to get like an actual sort conversion rate baseline. So I did a bunch of data analysis and saw that like 95% of the people who buy will buy within their first open cart, their first 30 days, first open cart. There were some edge cases, a non-zero amount of edge cases, but those people would buy within their second open cart. And I just thought the benefit of actually having urgency and being like, I will remove you from the waitlist if you don't buy, outweighed, you know, do I keep them on? Do I muddle the list? And so I think this was 3 months ago now.

I moved to this model where they only get one open cart chance. They then get the opportunity to rejoin. And like sometimes people will have missed the window. Maybe the email went to spam, maybe they were on vacation. They'll send me an email. Like, I'm not a monster. I'll add them back in. You know what I mean? It all works out in the end.

But now I truly have a conversion rate. It's basically like a first open cart conversion rate where I can see if this many people are on the waitlist, I can back into how many people I know will convert. Because I have, again, very good 9 months of data about this now.

Striving for or achieving?

So, you know, to me, I would think if I went through all of the trouble to apply and I have them like answer questions, I might be likely to join. And so I think like in my mind, for sure above 50%, but Like 60, 70% would be rad. I have currently about 30%. I never drop below 30, and I do sometimes go above. Now, the months where I've gone above, it could be widely above. Like one month I had like 80%, one month I had 50. I do know the 80% month, the following month I did a live challenge inside of the community that I like heavily promoted that I know was exciting. But some of the other higher months, Like, there doesn't seem to be a rhyme or a reason to me.

So it's like, this isn't a perfect system, but it's a good enough system, I think, for now.

I guess I've tried, even when it wasn't Evergreen, I tried sending custom acceptance, custom video where I literally backed into the reason that they said. I've tried messaging in addition to the email, maybe DMing them on LinkedIn. Nothing seems to move the needle beyond like actually just having good emails, you know? I do think it's 2 things. One, I think that people want to know if they will get accepted. There is something that people say, oh, I got accepted into PMM Camp. It kind of makes you feel like I'm at that next stage.

2, I do know that people will get accepted prior to asking their manager for approval, and so they won't always get that approval, and maybe they don't wanna pay out of pocket. I think probably the biggest difference between your business and my own is your business is like business owners, and so it's like we justify our own expense. It's still expensive, but I time, I justify it to myself versus a PMM leader, they have to justify it to their manager. It's a strange time in tech right now. That said, PMMs make good money, like they should be able to afford this. So that's why I feel like this is a bit of a cop-out. I haven't cracked the code on this. Like, this is, there's a few nuts to be cracked in the business and in the funnel, and this is one of them for sure, and something I spend a lot of time thinking about.

Yes. Yes. And I think we had spoken about in our mastermind is like, it's a double-edged sword. It's like, do you want to talk to them about the fact that they should get approval? Maybe they weren't even thinking about that expense at all and they were just going to pay for it. And now we've added a barrier to purchase in their mind. But at the end of the day, I do see about half the people expense their membership. And I would say when people people leave, if people churn out, usually it's because they no longer have professional development budget anymore. And so it does seem like that is a factor.

So one of the things I did is like I built in Lovable a cool tool, like it's like Mad Libs where they can fill in like, why do you want to join? Give me some information. And then I actually hand custom wrote the letter. It's not AI generated, but what it does is it takes their Mad Lib entry breeze, slots it into my hand-custom letter, and then they can like copy and paste it. So I added that last month. It'll be interesting to see. I don't think I saw any lift last month, honestly, but we'll see this month, if any. I'm open to other experiments, but this is definitely something going into the rest of the year I need to like be a bit more thoughtful about what else I can do to experiment on this.

Yeah, I would say first of all that posting and the feed in general is not seen as like the most important or most valuable feature. I even in my last year's like annual review with my members asked I'm like, what else could I do to create the feed to be a better experience? How could I? And they're like, we're not fussed about it. Like, it's fine as it is. And like, it's there when we need it, but it's not the reason that we joined PMM Camp. So that was like a large majority that told me that. So after that, I've kind of just like de-stressed a bit from that. But of course you still do want energy and, you know, and some activity. So when someone joins now, part of my onboarding flow is to track very specific behaviors in Circle and then tag the people in Circle based on that So I tag if someone has introduced themselves in the introduction channel, and then if someone has commented on a post, and then if they haven't introduced themselves within 7 days, I have an auto DM that says, hey, you should introduce yourself.

We'd love to get to know you. And then if they haven't written a comment on anything in PMM Camp in the first 30 days, then I DM them to say, I talk a little bit about being a good villager and I'm like, hey, part of being a great community member is also like contributing to the community. It's actually like one of the easiest ways to get started. You don't even need to ask a question. just like, go look at the Ask for Advice channel and see if there's someone that you could comment on. So I'm trying to like instill that behavior right now rather than trying to be like, think of a new topic, go in, post it.

Yes, with workflows. Yeah.

Oh, wow.

Totally. And like a comment has a bunch of things that could happen. Maybe that person who had the original post might say, hey, that's awesome. Like, let's hop on a call. And now we've, you know, facilitated an introduction, but equally, even if you are commenting, you're helping someone, and helping someone feels good, right? And so now you have this like hit of dopamine, and you're like, it feels amazing to be a PMM Camp member. Like, this is why I wanted to join, to help others. And now, oh yeah, I have something I need help with, and I remember that amazing feeling that I had helping someone else. It's all about vibes.

I've talked a lot about science, but really it's about vibes.

But my hypothesis is that people actually don't know I have a community. And it's funny because like, despite being a product marketer, and I think a pretty good one, I'm actually really bad at marketing myself, which I think we all struggle with. I just wanna give value. I feel awkward. So even when you join my newsletter, I don't even talk about my community. It just like naturally comes up maybe in my weekly content. Mm-hmm. Or if maybe if you follow me on LinkedIn, or if you happen to get a custom snippet at the bottom of the newsletter, because I know that you would be a fit.

So one of the things I want to do is prove that hypothesis. So basically be like, how do I insert the community higher up in the funnel? And so what I want to do is I want to build a bit of a webinar funnel, which I know sounds spammy and I don't mean it that way, but more like I have a lot of content I could give, particularly around this signature framework. What if anytime anyone came into to my world, the first thing I offered them was like this free live webinar where I teach it myself once per month and then, you know, pitch PMM Camp on the back end of it. And so I think that if that is true and I can get more people to be exposed to PMM Camp within like the first 30 days of finding me, then I should be able to increase the number of applications I get to the PMM Camp I think it's probably a good hypothesis of most people don't know you have the thing.

I do think that when someone signs up for something, they are the most excited. So I'm like, how can I capture on that excitement and give them something more? Like when people get excited, it's because they get to interact with me individually. So whether it's like they see me at a conference in person or they realize they actually can get on a welcome call. Again, my hypothesis is if I offer a live live event that they can come to and actually interact with me, that at their most excited moment when they just found my newsletter, they will want to do that. But could be wrong.

Yeah, I have considered that.

I know I did have this idea. So I love a theme, as you know, and so I have this idea of like family camp, you know, where you bring your friends and family with you. And I was like, I could maybe play off that for like an open house kind of vibe, like family camp, bring all your PMM coworkers or invite a PMM who you know and love that you think would love PMM camp. So there's definitely something I could play with there. I agree with you, it's maybe getting the format right. And then also what Like, what's the incentive for the members beyond just they love it and they wanna bring people? I'm always so hesitant to ask things of my members.

Yeah, true.

I love that. Okay. Give me something to noodle on. I will think it over.

I think it's that your business can be forecastable if you want it to. Like the amount of anxiety I have done away with now that I'm not worried about like launching and this kind of unknown. It's kind of just like the TLDR is get your baselines, build a system that allows you to run simple experiments to try to see if you can increase those baselines, and then just let everything flow from there. Like I project all my numbers for my business 12 months ahead of time, and I've hit or surpassed every number this entire year because it's like based on real numbers. And so I think it can be easier than maybe you think it is. You don't have to be launching every month or every quarter if you don't want to.