> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://creatorscience.com/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # Jamie Rawsthorne – How to steal an idea (and get millions of views) - URL: https://creatorscience.com/podcast/jamie-rawsthorne/ - Published: 2023-05-30T15:00:00.000Z - Updated: 2026-10-10T23:48:36.000Z - Description: Jamie Rawsthorne is the former half of the Zac and Jay show and current Youtube advisor to clients like Codie Sanchez and Morning Brew - Author: Jay Clouse - Tags: #podcast, Podcast, Content Strategy, YouTube Episode 150 # Jamie Rawsthorne – How to steal an idea (and get millions of views) Jamie Rawsthorne is the former half of the Zac and Jay show and current Youtube advisor to clients like Codie Sanchez and Morning Brew with **Jamie Rawsthorne**May 30, 202333 min [Watch](#watch) [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jamie-rawsthorne-how-to-steal-an-idea-and-get/id1498801064?i=1000614962893&ref=creatorscience.com) [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/7zDrOrnMxjJUJwMhJrr3kd?si=3c818455b5c54b7d&ref=creatorscience.com) More players Listen in your app [![](https://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=podcasts.apple.com&sz=64)Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/creator-science-with-jay-clouse/id1498801064?ref=creatorscience.com)[![](https://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=open.spotify.com&sz=64)Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/39j9VhklsBs1aLWtkGTWJT?ref=creatorscience.com)[![](https://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=youtube.com&sz=64)YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@jay/?ref=creatorscience.com)[![](https://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=overcast.fm&sz=64)Overcast](https://overcast.fm/itunes1498801064/creator-science?ref=creatorscience.com)[![](https://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=pocketcasts.com&sz=64)Pocket Casts](https://pocketcasts.com/podcast/creator-science-with-jay-clouse/7db47890-2ff0-0138-96e6-0acc26574db2?ref=creatorscience.com)[![](https://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=castro.fm&sz=64)Castro](https://castro.fm/podcast/5f8d5083-92f5-4a4e-a83e-29a773baa95c?ref=creatorscience.com)[![](https://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=castbox.fm&sz=64)Castbox](https://castbox.fm/channel/id2626956?ref=creatorscience.com)[![](https://www.google.com/s2/favicons?domain=podcastaddict.com&sz=64)Podcast Addict](https://podcastaddict.com/feed/https%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.megaphone.fm%2FTPG4024225475?ref=creatorscience.com)Copy the RSS feed ![Episode 150: Jamie Rawsthorne](https://megaphone.imgix.net/podcasts/a4c6693c-69f0-11ed-8b2e-1f54fafdde4c/image/9dd20e9d6821db6df9739ccc6557a322.png?w=640&h=640&fit=crop&auto=format,compress) Prefer to listen? This week's guest ![](https://megaphone.imgix.net/podcasts/a4c6693c-69f0-11ed-8b2e-1f54fafdde4c/image/9dd20e9d6821db6df9739ccc6557a322.png?w=640&h=640&fit=crop&auto=format,compress) **Jamie Rawsthorne**Former half of the Zac and Jay show and current Youtube advisor to clients like Codie Sanchez and Morning Brew ## Mentioned in this episode [Watch this episode on YouTube ↗](https://youtu.be/6p1jN4d4a6s?ref=creatorscience.com) ## Full transcript 5,863 words · click any timestamp to jump the video there Jamie Rawsthorne0:00 Me knowing everything that I know about YouTube, looking at it purely from a platform point of view, I think YouTube are being extremely ambitious with the scope of what they are as a platform. Previously it was just a video platform, you know, like you wouldn't see that many short clips, you wouldn't see that many long clips, but they've made an emphasis that they really want to push for long form content. Jamie Rawsthorne0:20 TV screens are the fastest growing screen, so that would also imply that more longform content is going to be pushed on the platform. They're also going taking attacks at Twitch with live streams off in gamer players over 2 trillion views and gaming on gaming views. They're also going for sport, so they've just got to Billie in bid for the Sunday NFL ticker. Jamie Rawsthorne0:42 So YouTube as a platform I think is being extremely ambitious with the different areas that it's now attacking. To be a YouTuber can mean so many different things when back then I think being a YouTuber was simply making videos. So that's what I'd say from a platform point of view, from a creative point of view, I think the algorithm is rewarding higher quality stuff, more and rewarding having an audience less. Read the full transcriptClose transcript Jamie Rawsthorne1:04 I think previously you used to be quite comfortable if I had a million subscribers, your videos would get distributed to those guys. But nowadays, based on kind of tick tock and tick tock, rapid rise, I think the reward and content that just gets watch time just gets clicks and keeps people on the platform much more than they are actually having an audience. Jamie Rawsthorne1:25 So I think that's good for new creators in some ways where they don't have to spend years like slowly, brick by brick, building up an audience. It could be seen as a bad thing for app and creators with large audiences because they've just got to keep raising the bar all the time. They can never get complacent. But I also do think there's something negative in there as well of just like new creators aren't in the space, they think they can go viral straight away. Jamie Rawsthorne1:47 When the traditional model, you would have to earn your stripes and build up that audience really slowly. And once you once you had them, it was worth loads here where nowadays I think people won't build those bricks as patiently and actually learn how to create great YouTube videos. I think there's something interesting that can be touched on with that point as well as like this Encourage is really smart entrepreneurs and to the space people who have seen how lucrative it can be to have a YouTube channel, they don't mind spending 25 grand a month to grow that YouTube channel. Jamie Rawsthorne2:17 When I create from day one who doesn't have the experience and know how to run a business, how to how to create really good videos of really good content. I think that can make it quite difficult to them because they're not compete and we've really well resourced people. So we are a few things in a. Conor Conaboy2:29 Do you think with how the algorithm is favoring like videos over having subs right now? To me it seems like there's a double edged sword where that's really good for new creators, but it also puts a lot of emphasis on like not there might not be as much of an incentive to innovate once you find something that works. Conor Conaboy2:52 Do you see how does that play into ideas and brainstorming videos when you could just do the same thing? Because that's what feeds the algorithm. Am I really incentivized to change up my content? Jamie Rawsthorne3:03 Yeah, I think it it does explode innovation with low left formats, and I think that's why you see in lots of videos of like on the streets of go viral because anyone else, anyone can pick up a mic with $150 and go out and film and have something go viral and do it again and do it again and do it again. Jamie Rawsthorne3:21 So that's why that is innovation with the low left stuff. But yeah, I really do think it does stifle the higher lift stuff because you've found what works with your channel and there's so much variance with like success and not success. Like if the video isn't received well by your audience or by the wider world, it won't have like a threshold of 250 K views, 150 maybe it's like it can really flop. Jamie Rawsthorne3:42 So I think create is you do find certain formats stick with them. And it's also yeah, I don't know, I think that's kind of a bit of a problem with YouTube in general. A lot of people just look at what works and imitate and copy that without really add in their own flavor to it. Jay Clouse3:56 Yeah, it's interesting because I'll see some of these YouTubers that will take like Noah Kagan's channel and he does a lot of these. You know, I asked this millionaire how they did this. And here's like another subgenre of Millionaire and here's a subgenre of Millionaire in my mind as an entrepreneur kind of goes through what is the actual business model of this? Jay Clouse4:15 Because, you know, typically you would attract an audience member, then you would nurture that relationship, build trust. But as Connor saying, if I'm kind of feeding them the same video in a different package five times over, it doesn't necessarily feel like I'm building a deeper relationship with each individual. It seems purely, let's bring in new people to be aware of me. Jay Clouse4:37 But then where does it go from there? Jamie Rawsthorne4:39 Yeah, yeah, I agree, man. I agree. And I think, yes, it is kind of boring, man. In my mind. It's and especially seeing so many people kind of explode underneath that model of asking what I seen recently, asking college students about X, asking this person about Y, and they're all like just changing tiny bits of the video format and it's obviously performing quite well. Jamie Rawsthorne5:04 But yeah, I think the creators do have a bit of a risk of ingrain in themselves too much in in a in a former. So as soon as Noah wants to do something else slightly outside of that, yeah it could absolutely burn even though it's doing quite well now. That was always something that means that quite consciously when we set up our channel, sneaking into events performed really, really well for us, but we just didn't want to be known as like the sneak in guys. Jamie Rawsthorne5:25 We saw a few creators who'd like actually exploded past 100 K subscriber Mark who were doing like Roof Top End. So that's neat. That's like climb a crane. They'd find the way onto a rooftop of like these big London buildings and they absolutely exploded with this kind of really unique style of content, but they just didn't diversify their content style. Jamie Rawsthorne5:41 Quick. And often as soon as they tried, you know, like if you're a rooftop in three years in a row, you kind of get a little bit bored of that. And same of sneaking into events. And if your audience don't want to, aren't there for you on what you can provide in your special flavor, then if you do a different action, they don't want to see the action, the different action they want to see. Jamie Rawsthorne5:59 But after what they know you for. So yeah, there's that risk as well. Conor Conaboy6:04 Do you think when you're talking about like or you had mentioned, people are taking ideas without really putting on their own flair. How do you go about taking that idea and putting your own flair on it? Like how do you steal like a YouTuber ethically to, you know, capitalize on videos that have already worked but isn't just ripping it off? Jamie Rawsthorne6:27 Yeah, I actually wrote a little piece on this today. I think there's like three ways that I think about it. There's like direct extrapolation and that's when you change like one simple aspect of a video title and do it yourself. And that's quite, quite risky of just copying someone else. I think it's fine to direct extrapolate from your own videos and it can perform really well, but yeah, you want to be careful doing it. Jamie Rawsthorne6:46 So now this indirect extrapolation, when you change like a combination of a few different things and there's abstract extrapolation where you're working out why this video is performed really well and trying to come up with more video ideas around why it's performed really well. And that's something which I did for the Zach and Jay Show. So like, yes, there is high performing video is visiting an abandoned town in the US with no laws and now 25 million views. Jamie Rawsthorne7:10 And I didn't even watch the video, but I was thinking to myself like, what could we do around this space? Like people it really curiosity evoke and it's kind of surprising that this thing still exists. It's going to have like characters in there. And so I kind of started looking at strange traditions based in the UK, and our first ever video was Vox and Glenn. Jamie Rawsthorne7:27 So I found this really strange thing, this park in the middle of Wales. People fly in from all over the world, so it's going to be a load of strange characters there. I was very surprised it was still existed in my fight for myself, so let alone what the viewers think. And it would have been a great video to document. Jamie Rawsthorne7:43 And so that was the first ever video that means I filmed after announcing the channel. And in the first month it got foreign 2000 views. And it's not only like 1.4 million views and then like the the direct extrapolation from there, we then just like changed that format. So we tried boxing up in the middle of Wales, then we tried the world's most dangerous football spot in Birmingham and that got like 3 million views. Jamie Rawsthorne8:07 Then we tried the world's most dangerous sport, which was cheese roll, and that got 1 million views. So I think that you can, but none of none of those videos, one would have ever looked at them and said, Oh, you've copied, yes, there is this, But it was kind of like extrapolate what worked from these high performing content areas and applied it on ourselves and then created formats around that that work well for us. Conor Conaboy8:25 Yeah, I see on the playlist channel, you guys have 11 variations of the same word videos. So when you're doing that, they all vary in views. How are you evaluating these videos after? Because not every idea you come up with is going to blow up. Sometimes you repeat the same idea and that doesn't blow up. How do you how are you looking at videos after you post? Jamie Rawsthorne8:49 By then we weren't really looking at videos whatsoever over them. The views, to be honest, I don't remember looking at retention curve to be honest, but yeah, that mainly the views maybe that the views won, but also how much we enjoyed it to be honest. Interesting. You looking back at the videos that didn't perform well like me with my analytic strategic hat on now because that's pretty much all up. Jamie Rawsthorne9:12 Do you just analyze YouTube videos, see why they work and try and replicate? You can see what we did wrong, and essentially we were just kind of inexperience like we were. Zack had run a channel for about a year and a half before me, but I'd only really uploaded 30 videos or something. I don't think that like 20 videos. Jamie Rawsthorne9:28 In our first year we only realized how important a thumbnail was, like four months and five months in a post and weekly. And that was with Nick Milano that we used to load the video on while it was, and Zack would like change the thumbnail. So looking back, yeah, there's so many like common errors that we made or upload in videos. Jamie Rawsthorne9:44 I can only identify looking back, it's like really long intros. Were one of them not build not tension was another one. Rhythm outros was another one. So yeah, it's fairly easy to see now looking back, but at the time we didn't really do that much like real time analysis. Jay Clouse9:59 Do you think that the the bar has been raised in the, in the eye of the viewer for how good a title and thumbnail must be? Because I hear these stories and I see videos that are like older that did really well where the thumbnail is just shit and we're over here busting an about trying to make a great thumbnail and sometimes does go anywhere. Jay Clouse10:16 So I'm wondering if the bar has been raised or if the idea is just so much more important than the thumbnail itself that the idea is really what moves the needle past and present. Jamie Rawsthorne10:30 Is, is an interesting one. Thumbnails because I think you can overthink them big time. Like when you've got them, you've got like a massive screen in front of you doing all these tiny details like that chicken getting thrown into the airplane is a distressed chicken. It's an airplane and it's a red circle around it with a guy in a high vis jacket like I downloaded. Jamie Rawsthorne10:49 They spent ages, ages, ages working on that. And I think that's sometimes like the only thing that you're trying to do with a thumbnail is make it pop and make it stand out and make someone stop scrolling. I'll make them click to that, out the 12 other options on the homescreen. So yeah, like has the standard been raised? Jamie Rawsthorne11:04 People are definitely put more emphasis on there. But I do think yeah, it's going back to the basics of just like does this thing pop and almost taken away the complexity like something that I used to do and still do occasionally is like the squint tests. So like I close my eyes and look at a thumbnail like that and does it stand out? Jamie Rawsthorne11:20 There's a cool thing. There's a tool called Thumbs up TV, which you can compare at the thumbnail based on like phone and desktop and you can see the time zone. So that's a good look at over seeing whether it pops. But yeah, go back to the point on virality as well. I think like sometimes you never really know what's going to work. Jamie Rawsthorne11:38 So even that Fashion Week video, which they changed the channels of our lives in the channel where it was out completely, we weren't actually ever going to upload that video after the first, and we didn't think it was good enough. And then we went back to it. Then we film like a second. It's probably good enough to upload and then it absolutely exploded the channel. Jamie Rawsthorne11:55 And I think that's that's something we've like good thumbnails as well. It's like easy to look at the ones that work is I that's why it works. But there's also like magic sauce and that which you never really know is going to explode. Conor Conaboy12:06 Yeah and I noticed on Zac's latest video on the Fashion Week thumbnail change a couple times and it took just a little bit to go and then they found it and 4.3 million views right now. Jamie Rawsthorne12:20 Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's yeah so I'm I work with Cody Sanchez's advisor and it's not something which I was ever like really on top of is like the thumbnails, But we've got a thumbnail guy at the moment who's like really shit like the analysts. It's like that 0.3% increase after an hour upload. But yeah, there's definitely, I think yeah, there's a bit of a magic sauce in there somewhere of not changing too much, not getting overly bogged down by data and by small nuances. Jamie Rawsthorne12:50 And something that is quite simple does is pop and grab attention and also yet seeing what works and learn from every time. Conor Conaboy12:56 Do you think people are too optimized right now because it blew I'm very surprised you said like you guys didn't really do any evaluation beyond views. And that's like so different than how people approach at least big YouTubers approach videos. Now. Jamie Rawsthorne13:12 Yeah, I will. I yeah, I think overall, yeah, I think overall people are too optimized in my mind. Views are the most important thing. Views include click through rate views include watch time. Views also kind of include what you want to publish. So even if you don't like directly take from it, you can see the general stuff that's kind of working on the platform. Jamie Rawsthorne13:34 So that I was actually not really on top of it with views like I mentioned with the yes, there are examples, but just not itty bitty data bits. I'm still not to be honest. Conor Conaboy13:43 I think that's a good thing. Probably seems to work. Jamie Rawsthorne13:47 Yeah. Jay Clouse13:49 You background's in entertainment style videos, you know and now you're you're consulting with Cody Sanchez, who is probably more so known in like the business realm. So how do you Max, how do you mash these two things together? Are you do you find yourself trying to pull in a lot more of the entertainment side into these videos that often could be more talking head style? Jamie Rawsthorne14:11 And I, I kind of went into YouTube from an entrepreneurial angle. I really I saw YouTube as setting up a business. I saw it as creating a big audience that I could then create products for. So I've always absolutely loved entrepreneurship. I run a business before the YouTube channel as well, so it's content. I do love consuming like I love people in her niche. Jamie Rawsthorne14:31 I love consuming that content. Yeah, I know. I think a lot of a lot of the thinking and strategy behind what means I did for our own channel. It can be applied elsewhere. So like the longevity questions we were asked, how do you like increase that fun affinity for you? How do you create sustainability but also try and have like rocketship growth? Jamie Rawsthorne14:56 Yeah, all of those questions, I think a fairly similar like how we found ideas for I can show can very easily be applied to how I find ideas to code in how we, we find ideas and same of longevity questions and how we monetize it and how we do it all. TOTY seems to not be able to burn out, but how we do it without like burning out the Creator. Jamie Rawsthorne15:18 Yeah, that is fairly similar to slightly applicable. Jay Clouse15:22 Do you think it's stupid to try to grow a channel from nothing based on podcast interviews? Jamie Rawsthorne15:30 It depends, because I think if anything for a podcast channel then it may be difficult having that audience move on to the other bits of content that you do. But if it is just purely a channel that you're trying to grow to promote the podcast, then I think it's a great show. Jay Clouse15:47 Well, I mean, the channel itself, I mean, we talk about this sometimes because the channel started as, Hey, the show is interesting. We should do a video version of it. And then as time has gone by, we've realized, you know, these are not the best uploads for YouTube to push out so random people and have people click through and watch the whole thing. Jay Clouse16:04 We should do some solo videos. So now we're kind of doing both. Jamie Rawsthorne16:06 One thing I would say on like YouTube podcasts and can use them for clips, I think you need to have like a really clear payoff to viewers or a really clear kind of narrative that moves on from one point to another. Colin and Samir do this quite well, so they'll interview someone and each point will address like a different aspect of a story which would like add a lot of value to the viewer. Jamie Rawsthorne16:26 But it's not just kind of like this waffling thing, like a podcast can be that goes here, there and everywhere that people kind of listen to a bit more, possibly another interview that I so do quite well. And that was like that John Guy who used to work at YouTube, did a video with Paddy Galloway. Yeah, and it was like 19 minutes long. Jamie Rawsthorne16:42 And you can see how different the conversation is to a normal podcast, like it's edited. So the parties talk it in like bullet points as opposed to a conversation flow. So yeah, I think you just need to be really clear, like what does give you a go of it? And I think you can do it, but it does need to be, it can't be a lazy thing. Jamie Rawsthorne16:59 You need to be very conscious of what the view is getting from it. Jay Clouse17:02 Let's say I'm a I'm someone listening to this and I want to get started on YouTube here in 2023\. What do you think is a good starting point for me to start thinking about how to construct my channel and start to get viewers. Jamie Rawsthorne17:15 Looking at the highest performing content in your niche from fellow creators, looking at 5 to 10 is looking at three five highest performing videos, singing, categorized them into high performing content areas, brainstorming from those high performing content areas, and working out what content you would like to film. And also so that I think is the best starting point. Jamie Rawsthorne17:34 There's also longevity questions of like, how are you going to monetize this? It's something really interesting happening on a day where, yes, they re announce that we're doing a course. It was they've got 8 million subscribers. They announced a storytelling course, something that they're the best people in the world. I feel it was for three and $50 and people absolutely hated it. Jamie Rawsthorne17:52 People literally were saying this is the downfall of yes. Eric Yes, they were extremely pissed. And then on the other hand, you've got Ali Abdullah with 4 million subscribers. So half the subscriber, I get my own cell on a YouTube course for $2000 to $5000\. And his audience absolutely love how much money he makes from his courses. He shares it. Jamie Rawsthorne18:10 So I think there's, you know, there's something about the relationship with the audience and having them expect that you are not going to make money off them, but you're going to have this relationship where you're going to offer products and services and someone's life and you're going to charge for it so you can keep doing what they love do. Jamie Rawsthorne18:28 And so I'd actually like think about that, maybe not from day one, because you don't plan too much in that space with zero AUDIENCE Well, think about that really quickly. And yeah, almost reached that point where you can get some revenue off your audience. Conor Conaboy18:41 I love that because thinking about the relationship you're going to have with the audience when it comes to monetization, it's really interesting. And yes, there is case because they've been so like entertainment focused and a lot of people in their audience, the only time they really hear of courses is when it comes to like dropshipping scammers, because that's when like commentary, YouTube or start making videos about it. Conor Conaboy19:02 So when they're presented with this course, they're like, what is this? Well, like, is this one of those scams versus Ali of dolls who it's like more people along the line of our audience where they're expecting that and they see the value in the vast majority of these types of programs and don't really touch upon like the scam side of things. Jamie Rawsthorne19:21 Yeah, definitely. I definitely think there was things that, yes, there he got wrong that were maybe not basic, but very easy to point out in retrospect. Another interesting point that I heard because I spoke with Angus Parker, who's Alabama's general manager. He's been, I think was the first employee in pretty much like it's his right hand man. And he said something interesting in that the extension of the product that Ali about offers is premium information because Ali offers information. Jamie Rawsthorne19:45 Yeah. If yes. NEARY Offer entertainment. The extension of that offer is a is a premium entertainment products. Instead, it's an education product. It's not ready to entertain. And so I thought that was kind of interesting. But again, I think that's why you want to embed this expectation that you are going to offer something with your audience early rather than later. Jay Clouse20:03 It also really comes down to like, what are people come in here for? You know, that's why I think that there is a spectrum between entertainment and education and in the creator world, because some people like entertainment time and education. Time is often different in people's minds. It's like I'm sitting down, I want to level up something and I want to learn a skill versus like, I'm sitting down just to pass the time and not think about things, not worry about like reaching the the perfect version of myself. Jay Clouse20:30 And yeah, I would argue that yes, there is very much on the entertainment side. So to go to an audience that has come here for this and offer something that is inherently going to be only interesting to a small number of those people, it's it's challenging. Like an email in my world, I would try to segment my audience because I use mostly email and I would know that. Jay Clouse20:50 But like in YouTube, you can't really segment your subscribers and send that video to just the people who would be interested in it. Jamie Rawsthorne20:56 Yeah, I mean, that was I did quite a lot of digging into it, but it was really fascinating to me, like what happened there, the idea that you can have double the audience size this year, 8 million subscribers and charge 17 the price 70%. The price of two grand. And your audience hated that. I thought it was really, really interesting how you get that right. Jamie Rawsthorne21:13 And you have what me and Angus spoke about was Yeah, I have an email is the main push, not primarily videos. Ali Abdul's never done a soul video on his channel to sell any products. He does little segments within them, potentially pushing people towards the product, but that's at the heart is pushy. Does every of the policies towards his email which and then that does the talking. Jamie Rawsthorne21:32 So I think it's kind of interesting. It's like the pretty face online just like warms you up. But then it's like the email who actually like, you know, just a jab, jab, punch, ask. See, I thought that was interesting. Conor Conaboy21:43 That's been pretty consistent across the show about video creators that come on and talk about all video being the top funnel and emails really where all they're selling comes from. Jamie Rawsthorne21:54 Really. What other creators of you spoke to who do the. Jay Clouse21:58 I mean, most of the creators that have on the show are not in the entertainment side. So it's like it's like all of them, most of them, if they if they're doing YouTube, they're either saying, I wish I had done email sooner or they say, this goes to email. And then there are a lot people like Marie Poulin, Tom, frankly, Thomas Frank I should say, they they they're both in the notion world, but they didn't even like have an email strategy necessarily. Jay Clouse22:23 They just did so well on YouTube and had an email list that kind of built itself into like, Oh, now I have this really great asset to leverage. The one example of someone that I talked to way back who did like make a primary video and sold something. And that kind of changed his channel and changed his life was Ron Segal. Jay Clouse22:42 He has a channel called Flex Academy. He teaches people UX and UI design. Yeah. And he was doing he was doing like free design to arterioles and things like that for literally years and then said, I have a course now and people loved it and changed his life like overnight. But again, that was, that was an education, that was an information based business. Jamie Rawsthorne23:01 Yeah, it's so interesting because like the entertainment creators that I know, the last thing that they want to do is like build an email newsletter with the email strategy of consistently post. Now it's just so far opposite of like messing around the internet and video and having lots of fun and getting a lot of use. And yeah, the products that they saw was like merch. Jamie Rawsthorne23:20 Merch probably is best to do it. Maybe not dedicated video, but I can integrate that in your video content as opposed to like up to my email. And then we'll tell you about merch. Like that's not, I think the merch. It would be better visually, but yeah, and that's interesting. Jay Clouse23:32 I've just seen seen you on Twitter jammin about this stuff around monetization recently and it's so fascinating to me because video video creators broadly, but especially entertainment creators, there's this huge bifurcation between that culture and the education culture that I swim in most of the time because the video creators are like merch brand deals and that's kind of where they're living for monetization. Jay Clouse23:54 And the other side, it's like information products, affiliate revenue courses, things like that. And they don't often touch sponsorship or physical products. And the best business model in my opinion, is like, figure out how you can integrate all of this stuff in a way that makes sense for for your business. Sarah Rene Clarke, YouTuber. She built a physical product called The Color Cube, which was like one of the most unique products I've seen of any creator in the last several years. Conor Conaboy24:23 And it's so on brand. Jay Clouse24:25 So unbroken, so perfect. That's why it is perfect. It integrates perfectly into what she's doing and it makes a lot of sense. But I identify as an entrepreneur more than anything else. And so video has been a hard thing for me because I have to learn how to like, have camera presence and be entertaining. I am much more in the like, let's build the machine of the business and I understand how YouTube plays a part in that. Jay Clouse24:47 I'm not coming from a place of let's fool around on the internet and then someday try to build a business out of it. Jamie Rawsthorne24:53 Yeah, that's interesting. Yes, Brilliant. And I'll check her out. That sounds good. Emma. I think there's going to be so much innovation in this space as people work out what is the best business model as businesses work out how to help people and complement things that are lacking. So the business side of these creators, so yeah, I think it's going to be interesting one to watch. Jay Clouse25:14 I don't know if you'd say you'd burn out, but you, you know, you got kind of tired and retired, at least temporarily, from your own channel. So let's talk about that a little bit. How do you how do you do this process and protect yourself from burning out even if you are building a successful channel? Jamie Rawsthorne25:31 How do you protect yourself and burn up on it? You have no idea. To be honest, I think there's a I think every year you just like expect to burn out. And just be honest, I'd ask you that question because I the only solopreneur is stuff on where I'm like, how do they do it all? Like the email newsletter, the podcast, the tweets, the YouTube videos, like you've tweeted, YouTube videos, you do it all. Jamie Rawsthorne25:51 So yeah. Jay Clouse25:54 Kind of knows. I'm like actively burning out right now. I just, I just published in, in my membership community I do a once a month retro and I'm like, hey guys, to be honest, like first 10 minutes of the video, I just wanna talk about how I pretty much burned out over the last three weeks. And we've, we've decided that we're actually slowing down video a tad so that we can focus on quality as opposed to just like trying to hit a weekly deadline on the channel. Jay Clouse26:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was exhausting. I mean, we, we've more and more tried to go earlier on in the process towards ideation and thinking about packaging before we even like script and shoot and stuff, which just makes the whole front end of producing a video so much longer and sort of stagger that and try to hit a weekly deadline is so hard. Jamie Rawsthorne26:38 Yeah, yeah. There was something that I was talking with someone recently. Recently this weekend, and he mentioned that YouTube is a very interesting beast in the most YouTubers. The the scope of that product increases every single time they upload. So like it can never really be satisfied because you give Mrbeast unlimited resources and he's going to make the biggest video in the world. Jamie Rawsthorne26:59 Yeah, and it was very much the same with Zach and Joshua. Like if you look at the amount of effort and resources that go into each video, sometimes it's like 5 to 10 grand per video. Now when previously we do four videos for five grand over the space of a month. And yeah, I'm like we now he's got way more resources, he's got way more of an audience and still like I think if you were to ask him are you like what do you need? Jamie Rawsthorne27:21 It's more money for bigger videos, more views and like something like podcasting. A lot of creators kind of seem to really do last a long time, seem to go from videos that have unlimited scope to podcasts, which which kind of don't that just conversations with interest and people. So like the quality of the podcast can increase dramatically based on the people that are on the podcast. Jamie Rawsthorne27:43 Well, the effort required of each of those podcasts is exactly the same on the issue. It's not the case that usually the videos require more effort, so they're not something interesting to know on YouTube. And I think it was just should be very conscious of that and saying like just being real with them. Like if it is a limited scope on each video that we publish, we are going to burn out and sometimes just say, fuck it, like that's what it takes and go for it. Jamie Rawsthorne28:06 And over time lean often and actively say, You know what, we're not going to maximize growth right now. [ ![](https://app.creatorscience.com/courses/podcast-like-a-youtuber/card.jpg?v=d37ea4db) Put this episode to work Podcast Like A YouTuber The playbook for a video podcast people watch $199 · 230+ students · 14-day refundSee the course → ](https://app.creatorscience.com/courses/podcast-like-a-youtuber?utm%5Fsource=creatorscience.com&utm%5Fmedium=episode-card&utm%5Fcampaign=jamie-rawsthorne&utm%5Fcontent=episode) This week's guest ![](https://megaphone.imgix.net/podcasts/a4c6693c-69f0-11ed-8b2e-1f54fafdde4c/image/9dd20e9d6821db6df9739ccc6557a322.png?w=640&h=640&fit=crop&auto=format,compress) **Jamie Rawsthorne**Former half of the Zac and Jay show and current Youtube advisor to clients like Codie Sanchez and Morning Brew Free every Sunday ### Get the ideas from every episode Join **65,000+** creators reading the Creator Science newsletter. 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